David: staying away from OT, since we mostly ignore all it says because it was pre-jesus, i stick to NT where it is just there in the pages. I have a third stance: i also think the Word says it,s not ok. i do not have a problem with gays or their community. I believe God loves them and wills for them to go to heaven. I am friendly to gays and their comminity, i believe i am to love others no matter what. I think if someone who considers himself gay wants to follow jesus, they will face these verses and will either choose to ignore them or not, but its all a process. There are verses i am in the process of living, and that doesnt make me un-christian, but im not trying to change their meaning either. Maybe i dont feel like forgiving someone who really did something bad to me, and the word says i must, but i dont do it… Maybe one day, ill grow in my walk with him enough to finally forgive, but i will not change the verse to fit me, i should change to fit it.
Christopher: Except the word has changed over the centuries. Be have been altering and adding, subtracting to the text since the Bible was first formed. Anyone who has actually studied it and its history will know this and that no modern translation of the Bible is perfect nor 100% accurate.
David: I think the text we have today is reliable enough. But for the sake of dialogue, I would offer this thought: So the text we have today, in this matter, is either accurate or not accurate. If it is accurate, the warning is that (as well as many other offenses), homosexuality can derive in eternal death. Anyone who chooses to believe the text is not accurate, as you argue, would then have to be willing to run the risk of not partaking of life eternal. What if that person gets to heaven and in the judgement they find out the text was accurate? So for example, imagine you’re about to get a blood transfusion. The blood may or may not be contaminated with a deadly virus or bacteria. Would you take the risk?
If not, then why take the risk with your eternity?
Christopher: The fact that there are different translations that said different things over the centuries shows that the texts we have today are not accurate. No modern translation is perfect and there whave been things that have been added to the scriptures. One of which is the doctrine of Eternal Hell and condemnations of homosexuality; neither are in the original langauges, in fact gay marriage was in practice in the early church, notably with two martyrs Sergius and Barcchus. I have seen Orthodox Jews and experts on the original Greek and Hebrew that affirm that the modern translations against homosexuality are inaccurate, backed up by Orthodox scholarship (Hope Remains Online is the place to start and is quick to answer further questions on its contact forms). These guys are experts in the languages with decades of study under their belt. Actually studying the history of the Bible you’d see this, it’s not hard to look up nor are the imperfections of every mordern Bible plain to see. The Bible is as in error as eveything on this earth, especially as far as translations go.
David: Sadly, again, there will be another set of “scholars” and “experts” on the matter who would contradict what you just said. It will be up to you and me to choose who to believe, but surely a group is correct and the other one is wrong. I believe the description in Romans 1 is quite clear. You can find a quote online saying on the matter: Most scholars hold that Paul had two passages of the Book of Leviticus, 18:22 and 20:13, in mind when he used the word ??se?????ta?, … with most commentators and translators interpreting it as a reference to male same-sex intercourse. (note “most”) — so again, you can choose to believe either group, yet what is at stake is too important.
I think in this matter, I’d be looking for certainty, since we are talking about a very serious issue – again, the penalty for such actions could be eternal death (note I did not say Hell…). It is ultimately up to you and whoever reads the texts we have today to decide to take the risk to accept or reject the classical interpretation on this matter.
I believe an honest heart, a humble heart can hear from God in the matter beyond what other people say and what scriptures say. So I would just pray for a God confirmation on the matter. That way, the moment I’d face Him I’d know my conscience is clear from any sin on the matter. Jesus said to deny ourselves and follow Him. Every area where the text says we should deny ourselves, we should. Being honest is not always easy, being faithful to your spouse is not always easy, being loving to all is not always easy… and we are all in a process. Eventually sexuality should not keep us away from God. It’s not that important. It eventually fades. People should not exchange an eternity without God for a few years of exercising sexuality. Sex is a temporary thing. And again, I say this of the whole list – fornication, adultery, “immorality” (whatever that one means), and yes, homosexuality.
David, Chris Kratzer 9 Comments
[11/28/2017 11:22:22 PM]
Fundie Index: 2